Author: adamdjbrett
season5 · 28 Jan 2025
an interview with Michael McNally
⤓ Download a transcript of the Episode as a PDF // → Subscribe
We begin this episode with a land acknowledgement.
This podcast episode discusses the Doctrine of Discovery and its impact on Native American religious freedom. Michael McNally, author of the book “Defend the Sacred: Native American Religious Freedom Beyond the First Amendment,” explains how the language of religion has been both a limitation and a strategic tool for Native American advocacy. The episode examines the history of the Doctrine of Discovery, the American Indian Religious Freedom Act, and the ongoing legal battles over sacred places like Oak Flat. It also explores the tensions between Western notions of religion, law, and sovereignty, and the relational, responsibility-based worldviews of many indigenous communities. The conversation emphasizes the need to move beyond just religious freedom discourse and instead recognize the inherent sovereignty and collective rights of Native nations.
This podcast episode explores the intersections of Native American religious freedom, legal frameworks, and the enduring implications of the Doctrine of Discovery. Hosted by Philip Arnold and Sandra Bigtree, the episode features guest Michael McNally, author of Defend the Sacred: Native American Religious Freedom beyond the First Amendment. McNally delves into the limitations and possibilities of religious freedom laws in protecting Native sacred sites and sovereignty.
McNally discusses the complexities of using “religion” as a framework for Native sacred sites’ protection. He highlights the legal challenges indigenous communities face, as exemplified by cases like Standing Rock and Oak Flat. While the language of religious freedom often fails in courts, McNally emphasizes its power in building alliances and advancing legislative gains, citing efforts led by figures like Suzan Shown Harjo. He examines the role of U.S. laws like the American Indian Religious Freedom Act and argues for a strategic engagement with these legal structures, despite their colonial underpinnings.
The conversation also unpacks the broader implications of the Doctrine of Discovery and its historical role in justifying the dispossession of Native lands. The hosts and McNally stress that Native sovereignty is deeply tied to responsibilities toward land, water, and the natural world, rather than rights framed in settler-colonial legal terms. Traditional governance systems, like those of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, offer alternative models that prioritize relationality over domination.
A key theme is the importance of collective action, solidarity, and allyship. The hosts and McNally reflect on the cultural and global resonance of movements like Standing Rock, which galvanized widespread support through universal truths such as “water is life.” These movements illustrate how spiritual and cultural values can transcend legal defeats, inspiring continued advocacy for indigenous rights.
The episode concludes with cautious optimism. McNally posits that legal setbacks, such as the recent Oak Flat case, are not the end of the story for indigenous peoples, who maintain a long view of history and resilience. The hosts advocate for amplifying traditional voices and envisioning frameworks that respect indigenous sovereignty and relationships to the land. The conversation underscores the enduring importance of these issues for Native communities and the broader world.
Philip P. Arnold and Sandra Bigtree, “S05E05: Reimagining Legal Frameworks: Protecting Native American Sacred Sites and Sovereignty,” Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery (Podcast), January 22, 2025. https://podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org/season5/episode-05/.